Lynn has become one of Barbara's fiercest critics. LYNN PALTROW: I think I was really horrified and terrified. Meaning that they had less incidence of heart disease? JAD: We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. It's such a surprising result. We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. My mom needed a girl and, boop! Completely answer all questions in Section I AND Section IV. If you've already had a kid, you can be sterilized. JAD: Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? Apparently, those grandkids SAM KEAN: Were less prone to diabetes. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. LATIF: Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: I'm going to go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control. And they had more. How much of you will echo into the future and how much of you won't? As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. Just to be sure, we asked Frances Champagne what she thinks of this data. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, toddler: Theres the moon.]. PAT: Destiny says one day, she and her mom were in the car, and her mom said DESTINY HARRIS: She said, "I don't know, you know, maybe they'll grow bigger? JAD: Just to be sure, we asked Frances Champagne what she thinks of this data. Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. I mean, when you think of Kammerer, there was a report in science outlining a theory about how Kammerer's toads got these characteristics that invoked these epigenetic inheritance and imprinted genes and it made it plausible. Like, "How did this happen? Do you know anything about the other four? On the one hand, she says, immediately, cheques started arriving. BARBARA HARRIS: "I want to thank you for your support and kindness as always." FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: This is real physical-chemical interaction between what's going on in the environment and what's going on with the DNA. ROBERT: So, somehow, by some chemical mechanism, starving grandpa, back when he was about 9 to 12 years old, turned out to be a good thing. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You know, you've got all these chemicals around. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Well lets lets read the book first. SAM KEAN: They wanted to see basically the effects of starvation on multiple generations. "To Whom It May Concern, I have been doing very good. And according to Barbara, the majority of the women she pays are white. He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. Is that what you're saying? I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." You know what they're going to go do with that money. You are not God. PAT: The moment I really felt like, "Whoa," was when we started talking about PAT: The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. Knock it right off the DNA. ROBERT: Okay, so lets get going and stick with your boy, Lamarck, just for a sec. But I take it that we have more control over our destinies and our kids' destinies than we would've thought. [chuckles], Yes, yes. The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. I mean, youre just youre saying a lot of things that are really impressive. ROBERT: Thats what Darwin says, you cant. PAT: As Barbara made the rounds on the daytime talk shows, the reaction was split right down the middle. It's just a mind crushing tedium. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and CHARLOTTE and VERONICA ZIMMER: The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. It was this struggle for a few years. And when he examined it, he noticed that there was a syringe hole there. TRANSCRIPTS. Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. And they had more. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. And he would basically turn the heat way, way up in these aquariums until they had to go underwater. JAD: Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. By Recode Staff Updated Oct 25, 2017, 12:01am. ROBERT: So what is the licking doing then? There's going to be this massacre of toads and only a few lucky ones are going to survive. DESTINY HARRIS: To her, I matter. But a few of us make a habit of it. JAD: People can't just will themselves into a more perfect form. I didn't see them as people. The connection between trees Normally trees from different species are competitors. A really good radiolab about this called Inheritance. Started with the tongue. PAT: Lynn has become one of Barbara's fiercest critics. Full disclosure, she's Robert's sister's partner. CARL ZIMMER: He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? BARBARA HARRIS: I'm not saying that these women are dogs but they're not acting any more responsible than a dog in heat. Well think about it, this is nature and nurture slamming into each other. This whole toad thing, to the Darwinian faction, it didn't scan really. The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. And even though they look basically nothing alike. His example with humans was a blacksmith. JAD: And thats wrong [laughs].Thats not how it works. That's what I remember her saying. But according to Kammerer, shortly after these toads got into the water, they did begin to evolve fast. You just haven't evolved for this and there's no way you can, at least not quickly. In just two generations, these toads seem to have done something that should have taken, I don't know, 50, 100 generations? Live shows were first offered in 2008. And The other day someone was whistling and I was like, "Stop it", and it just hit me, I was like, "Oh God, I was him", it's never appeared until now. You're eight, sorry. It might be a mixture. And um PAT: Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. This is real physical-chemical interaction between what's going on in the environment and what's going on with the DNA. You are not God. They've seen it and they've repeated the experience. Did that scare you at all? Maybe they'd try and jump back out, but it was still hot so they'd have to jump back in. JAD: So, in the end, where do you come down on this? Were just talking about toad, I thought. SAM KEAN: He was known for going around and giving, what he called, his big show lectures, where he would wow whole audiences of people. ROBERT: That's Sam Kean again. Because the truth is, you have no idea how these kids are going to turn out. Then, Carl told us about this research that showed Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. Is that too old?" Maybe more. And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? DESTINY HARRIS: You missed it. I mean, yes, I might get a great family, but I might not. So, of course the folks at the Vivarium asked him. You're finishing college, right? MICHAEL MEANEY: Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. "I want to thank you for your support and kindness as always." He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming. JAD: I tell you what I'm going to do though. CARL ZIMMER: Enhancing public understanding of science and technology CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: in the modern world. PAT: And all over the political spectrum, from Hollywood lefties to social conservatives. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of. JAD: You can imagine these toads are like, "Dammit, fine. He was born in 1880 in Vienna, Jewish family. ROBERT: Cause we were talking to science writer, Carl Zimmer, and he told us that back in the early 1900s, this tension between Lamarck and Darwin got extra tense. You just have to weigh it, is it worth it? ", SAM KEAN: "They can respond to the environment.". Push yourself and you got it.". When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. OLOV BYGREN: So they didn't starve to death. I'm almost done. And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. I think I was really horrified and terrified. Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. Because he couldn't hold formula down. But she says she doesn't feel that way anymore. RADIOLAB Podcast "Inheritance" Homework Assignment Name: Rohan Desai PSUID: 9 6241 8529 Listen to the first three stories of the "Inheritance" Radiolab Podcast (Control + click on link to access podcast. That's the stuff that makes you you. PAT: Destiny says before she was born, her mom had four other girls. She was thinking BARBARA HARRIS: "Everybody's motivated by money., BARBARA HARRIS: Can I offer these women money to use birth control? SAM KEAN: Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. And those lucky ones, according to Darwin's theory, they would have had to have been born with some random mutation in their genes That gave them an advantage in this situation. I mean, yes, I might get a great family, but I might not. He thought that you could kind of engineer societies by changing the environment. Yes, but creating an assumption that there is a class of people who don't deserve to procreate, who aren't worthy of procreating the human race, leads you down a path that we should have great concern about. And when she had a baby. One time, and I'm on flighter. My name is Veronica Zimmer. People can't just will themselves into a more perfect form. BARBARA HARRIS: Yes, she has the same name as me. And he makes a very careful study of this hand. Inheritance from Radiolab on Podchaser, aired Friday, 1st April 2022. And when it came time to mate, the males and the females, they would mate in the water. About 30 years ago-. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. Since birth. What does that mean, he was an idiot? There was a newspaper called The Daily Express and they have these headlines that come out. MICHAEL MEANEY: So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. SAM KEAN: And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. And looking at these swings in fortune, Olov realized what he had here was Because with all this data, he and his team could follow families forward in time, through the generations. These are women who love their children, who sought help. We'll just get one more.". Nobody's arguing that women should do drugs when they're pregnant. JAD: And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. PAT: In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. Nobody has a right to do that to a baby. His famous example was giraffes. SAM KEAN: Except he had one. And if you were eating a whole lot between 9 and 12, one-quarter. ROBERT: They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside OLOV BYGREN: That is the time where the sperms are developing. Are there people whose drug use is so out of control they can't parent? And in one day, we can imagine, he gets curious. JAD: And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. JAD: Look, in the end, what do I know? like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. Frankly, this makes being 9, 10, 11, 12 like a rather crucial. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. Mamaw was the one I'd come to see. Listen Feb 10, 2023 Bliss When did you last shout from happiness? I'm not saying that these women are dogs but they're not acting any more responsible than a dog in heat. Okay, and then I just had to accept it. Test the outer edges of what you think you know. Yeah. So were getting close to the moment of truth, because there it is. PAT: Because she says as soon as she saw Destiny BARBARA HARRIS: Sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair. BARBARA HARRIS: After I've gotten to know so many of the women. And you have to bear in mind that at this point, it only had one hand left. He thought it worked with humans, too. You must have internet access to do this). Were told. Where sound illuminates ideas, and the boundaries blur between science, philosophy, and human experience. I said, "No, no, that's okay." You know, when smart people say, you know, "There's no such thing as nature and nurture it's only interaction of the two," You're like, "What the hell does that mean?" PEJK MALINOVSKI: Here we have how much they harvested. The women who I've worked with, who've had a history of drug problems, aren't like the examples that she gives. Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. And very often, one of them will just go crashing into the DNA and it'll stick there like a barnacle or a glob of peanut butter. Or is it? I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. In a very real way, weve been thinking a lot about inheritance. You can't change your DNA. LULU: In a very real way, we've been thinking a lot about inheritance. Right below the headlines says, "Scientist's great discovery which may change us all.". PAT: It would be wrong to assume the women Barbara talks about on TV [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: These women don't just have one and two babies. PAT: If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. It's against the rules. And I didn't find a single case of someone saying that they regretted what they've done. JAD: It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. Radiolab is on YouTube! But along with the support came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up. My name is Jean Kean. I agree with Lynn, that this program does perpetuate a stereotype. I'm graduating in December. Assuming that you can survive the ordeal, and you grow up, and you have kids of your own, the data seems to say that your kids will benefit from your suffering. MICHAEL MEANEY: Known as transcription factors. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. Yeah, there you go. Like have you ever had one of those moments where you suddenly are your dad and it catches you off guard? And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. With a child, they give you a whole folder full of information, tells you all about them. ROBERT: Is that what you're saying? CARL ZIMMER: This second channel of heredity. PAT: Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed DESTINY HARRIS: Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. And the incredible thing is, those marks stick around. I tell you what I'm going to do though. PAT: She did. PAT: Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara BARBARA HARRIS: That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. The show is nationally syndicated and is available as a podcast. I said, "This will be the last one. I mean, they didn't have porridge. That's my little girl. BARBARA HARRIS: They were seven and eight at the time. On the Radiolab website they define the show as follows: "Radiolab is a show about curiosity. ROBERT: It's a little odd, actually. Kinda makes me claustrophobic. LYNN PALTROW: Well, her explanation is that these women are having, in her terms, litters of damaged babies and society forever will be responsible for them. They didn't have grains. Accuracy and availability may vary. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: I think that's where Lamarck's ideas can be woven in and make some sense. Peanut butter, there we go. JAD: Is that a genetic hatred of whistling that I just had? Methyl groups are pretty sticky, they're hard to get off. ROBERT: Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. And he was going through withdrawal. SAM KEAN: In a little community called verkalix. Which, when you think about it, it has a very Lamarckian flavor. But, this hour were gonna fight this sort of sad sack feeling of inevitability and impotence. Through all the training that we had to do and first aid, fingerprinted and had a background check done. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: You get them $200 each, which they can spend on crack. Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. ], What's the worst thing you have been called by one of your critics?]. It's a little odd, actually. PAT: The way she saw it, the state, the federal government, somebody BARBARA HARRIS: Should say, "You're not doing this. And you have to bear in mind that at this point, it only had one hand left. Yes, no, okay, move on to the next cage, yes, no? Full transcript: Radiolab co-host Jad Abumrad on Recode Media The new season of More Perfect, a spinoff show from Radiolab, began airing Oct. 2. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. Like, mine are bigger, you know." You can't change your DNA. LULU: In a very real way, weve been thinking a lot about inheritance. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yes. PAT: Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. BARBARA HARRIS: It was just no baby should have to come into the world like that. They have found very similar effects for smoking, for instance. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. I mean, he hates water. KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Jans Olaf, Hanna Kaiser, Heinrik Venvei. That's 9, 10, 11. Who, together, pledged more than $150,000 to her program.]. Were told. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information. JAD: So heres the backstory. BARBARA HARRIS: Light bothered him, noise bothered him. So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? Yes. PAT: But were getting ahead of ourselves here. And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. ROBERT: What does it look like? PAT: Just a little. JAD: When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. All right, I'll get in the water." That's how we ended up with four of them. It's a very different kind of front line, where urgent work means moving slow, and time is marked out in tiny pre-planned steps. But, I said this to Lynn, "Despite all the things that trouble me about Barbara's program, I feel like what she's trying to do is to stop a kid from getting born into a childhood that's going to suck.". Visit our website. And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus." Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? JAD: Well, if a mother a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. I don't know where she gets that from. And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus." So, the thought is, when those little boys in verkalix were really, really hungry, their hunger started a chemical process that reached all the way down to the DNA inside the boy's sperm. Stretching got into the baby. CARL ZIMMER: And he makes a very careful study of this hand. [foreign language]. I wonder. JAD: Or did I somehow learn that? SAM KEAN: He extended this idea to people. As Barbara made the rounds on the daytime talk shows, the reaction was split right down the middle. Anyways, God bless you. CARL ZIMMER: Is your wife going to hear this? BARBARA HARRIS: Because he couldn't hold formula down. Plus, find other cool things we did in the past like miniseries, music videos, short films and animations, behind-the-scenes features, Radiolab live shows, and more. Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. His famous example was giraffes. PAT: Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? You can do this. Its something I still think about all the time. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Whats this letter right here? JAD: But were gonna play you stories where JAD: This is Radiolab. ROBERT: So, the thought is, when those little boys in verkalix were really, really hungry, their hunger started a chemical process that reached all the way down to the DNA inside the boy's sperm. I don't have the biggest boobies in the world. You know? ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: That's their choice, but the babies don't have a choice.]. Are you nine? You know, like if you're abused as a kid, you were more likely to abuse your kid, but still, you got to wonder. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Who, together, pledged more than $150,000 to her program.]. Researchers have found evidence of structural. PAT: But along with the support came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up. Take a look, explore and subscribe! And rewrite the so-called rules of genetics. Whole lifetime of stretching. But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. PEJK MALINOVSKI: It says "registrera", register. [laughs] "This may hurt you my son, but I'm doing it for my grandchildren.". She said, "Well, she's just beautiful and she has lips like a baby doll." And she says, one day, this idea just came to her. Still, that's a burden that, he's carrying a big burden there. 2K views almost 2 years ago 48:23 Love it or hate it, the freedom to say obnoxious and subversive things is the quintessence of what makes America America. At the Vivarium, as the name suggests, they have live animals. It seemed to have been passed down for multiple generations. BARBARA HARRIS: Barbara Harris. Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA And these things are called, apparently, methyl groups. Its something I still think about all the time. MICHAEL MEANEY: I think the Swedish data are really, really strong, and very reliable. CARL ZIMMER: But there were a lot of skeptics. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. Yeah, like you can help them overcome you. Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. Life is hard.". Meet Jeremiah! OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. So for Isaiah, being born was like just being cut off. Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. If your grandpa didn't starve, instead he lived through great times. So she told me Barbara had another baby and BARBARA HARRIS: Did we want it? When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. She was totally an oops kid. Once their born, their genes are fixed and change does not happen in a generation or two. BARBARA HARRIS: He wasn't a little happy baby. So he actually went to Vienna. These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? 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